John, I was wondering what you thought of this incident.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4050813  

--Last edited by John on 2007-12-30 17:04:20 --

Well, it's obviously a horrible thing.  I'm going to wait until more info comes out before I place any undue blame on anybody in particular.

There's got to be more to the story, though, because those enclosures are designed to prevent just such a thing from happening.  It's hard to imagine an animal, such as a Siberian Tiger, having any way whatsoever to escape.  It's 2007, not 1897.  There's no way anything like this should happen today.

Again, very sad. I agree with John... in this day and age, this should never happen.

What a terrible day for everyone involved, and while I technically understand why Tatiana was shot instead of being sedated I'm sad that she was killed.

It's a terrible tragedy, but I have a feeling it's going to be found that those three guys provoked the tiger.  My guess is that they possibly even tried to aid its escape.  The style of the enclosure plus the time of day when it occurred (not to mention the age and gender of those involved) leads me to believe that there's a heck of a lot more to this story than has been reported thus far.

In light of the outcome, one can never say that anyone "deserved it".  However, I'm guessing that alcohol and stupidity may well have been contributing factors in the situation.

Never mix alcohol with kats. Not good.

Quote :

sabercat wrote : Never mix alcohol with kats. Not good.

IMO most things shouldn't be mixed with alcohol, but trying that combination sounds positively bad for all participants.

And while I'm not going to make any judgements on the case in hand yet, one of my pet peeves is that the kind of human stupidity John described typically ends with the animal paying the price.  

--Last edited by meckelbu on 2007-12-26 17:07:54 --

Quote :

One zoo official insisted the tiger did not get out through an open door and must have climbed or leaped out. But Jack Hanna, former director of the Columbus Zoo and a frequent guest on TV, said such a leap would be an unbelievable feat, and "virtually impossible." "There's something going on here. It just doesn't feel right to me," he said. "It just doesn't add up to me." Instead, he speculated that visitors might have been fooling around and might have taunted the animal and perhaps even helped it get out by, say, putting a board in the moat. Similarly, Ron Magill, a spokesman at the Miami Metro Zoo, said it is unlikely a zoo tiger could make such a leap, even with a running start. "Captive tigers aren't nearly in the kind of shape that wild tigers have to be in to survive," he said. He said taunting can definitely make an animal more aggressive, but "whether it makes it more likely to get out of an exhibit is purely speculative."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071226/D8TPEK0G0.html

Quote :

meckelbu wrote :  IMO most things shouldn't be mixed with alcohol, but trying that combination sounds positively bad for all participants. And while I'm not going to make any judgements on the case in hand yet, one of my pet peeves is that the kind of human stupidity John described typically ends with the animal paying the price.

I totlay agree.

I wont find it to suprising that atleast the first guy (the one that died) was not involved in the exscape.  According to my mom, who watched the news tonight's news, she says that they are looking into the possibilites that the tiger jumped the moat and the wall, but I think it would have been impossible.  The other two people, it could be how they fleed that caught the tigers attention and made it give chace (you know like with bears you make yourself look big and hold your ground, not running)

Slightly off topic, but on the note of alchole and cats, just a couple teaspoons of alochol (beer, whiskey, etc) could kill a domestic cat

Quote :

John wrote : http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071226/D8TPEK0G0.html

Thanks, that link gives a much better view of the situation, maybe we'll see soon if your theory holds water (at least for the zoo it might be better than the alternative).

Quote :

campsoup1988 wrote :  I totlay agree. I wont find it to suprising that atleast the first guy (the one that died) was not involved in the exscape.  According to my mom, who watched the news tonight's news, she says that they are looking into the possibilites that the tiger jumped the moat and the wall, but I think it would have been impossible.  The other two people, it could be how they fleed that caught the tigers attention and made it give chace (you know like with bears you make yourself look big and hold your ground, not running)

After seeing a picture of the enclosure, the possibility of a tiger simply leaping out of there seems pretty far-fetched to me too, but then again I'm no expert on tigers or enclosures.

Speaking of fleeing, I remember reading that regardless of circumstances you should never turn your back on a kat because they will instinctively pounce on you? Not that it's wise to turn your back on a bear either.

Quote :

campsoup1988 wrote : Slightly off topic, but on the note of alchole and cats, just a couple teaspoons of alochol (beer, whiskey, etc) could kill a domestic cat

Aspirin does that too unless the amount is very small, cats have low or very low tolerance to toxins and drugs.  

--Last edited by meckelbu on 2007-12-26 20:15:47 --

Quote :

John wrote : Quote : One zoo official insisted the tiger did not get out through an open door and must have climbed or leaped out. But Jack Hanna, former director of the Columbus Zoo and a frequent guest on TV, said such a leap would be an unbelievable feat, and "virtually impossible." "There's something going on here. It just doesn't feel right to me," he said. "It just doesn't add up to me." Instead, he speculated that visitors might have been fooling around and might have taunted the animal and perhaps even helped it get out by, say, putting a board in the moat. Similarly, Ron Magill, a spokesman at the Miami Metro Zoo, said it is unlikely a zoo tiger could make such a leap, even with a running start. "Captive tigers aren't nearly in the kind of shape that wild tigers have to be in to survive," he said. He said taunting can definitely make an animal more aggressive, but "whether it makes it more likely to get out of an exhibit is purely speculative." http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071226/D8TPEK0G0.html

Seems like an interesting point of veiw.  I only read half of the first page so far.  Do you know where this article was written?  I find it interesting Miami Metro Zoo is a local zoo that I have been to a few times here in S.FL!

My kat goes positively KRAZY when you put mint listerine on a sock and give it to him. The sock usually ends up paying the price.

Quote :

sabercat wrote : My kat goes positively KRAZY when you put mint listerine on a sock and give it to him. The sock usually ends up paying the price.

I wouldn't suggest it.

Lets try to keep this discussion serious though.

PS: I see I am not the only one to spell krazy this way! "-"

No. I'm serious.... very serious. His eyes get all dialated and he goes mental. It's awesome. Just messy.

Quote :

sabercat wrote : No. I'm serious.... very serious. His eyes get all dialated and he goes mental. It's awesome. Just messy.

I mean I want to keep this thread as a serious (as much as possible) discussion about the tiger incident.

Here is a bit more details

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4055497&page=1  

--Last edited by campsoup1988 on 2007-12-27 09:08:24 --

If the shoe fits... Just like OJ's glove...
San Francisco Zoo officials admitted Thursday that a wall around the enclosure where a Siberian tiger escaped and killed a teen was shorter then the height recommended by a national zoo-accrediting agency.

Zoo director Manuel A. Mollinedo acknowledged that the wall around the tiger enclosure was 12 1/2 feet high, about four feet below the height recommended by zoo oversight agency the Association of Zoos & Aquariums.

Mollinedo also said when the American Zoological Association inspected the facility three years ago, no red flags were raised about the wall's height. He said now the zoo is "revisiting the actual height."

A tiger attacked its victims four times in a deadly mauling at the zoo Christmas Day, San Francisco's police chief confirmed Thursday.

The attacks left Carlos Sousa Jr., 17, of San Jose, dead. Two brothers, ages 19 and 23, who were with Souza were injured. A spokesman from San Francisco's General Hospital said the injured men were in stable condition and would probably be released in the next several days.

Chief of Police Heather Fong said investigators have determined Sousa and one of the brothers were mauled in front of the lion and tiger grotto. The other brother said he ran to the Terrace Cafe approximately 300 yards away because he knew there were people there. The tiger went after him there and as police officers approached, the animal, a 4-year-old Siberian tiger named Tatiana attacked again. Police shot and killed the cat.

Fong also said a bloody shoeprint was found on the fence above the moat surrounding the tiger enclosure. She said no shoe or personal item had been found in the area between the moat and fence, contrary to earlier reports. Fong said the shoes of the three victims have been collected for examination.

The zoo remains closed and there is no word when it will reopen.

Zoo officials have also said that no door to the enclosure had been left open and it appeared the tiger either climbed or jumped out.

But Jack Hanna, former director of the Columbus Zoo and a frequent guest on TV, said such a leap would be an unbelievable feat, and "virtually impossible."

"There's something going on here. It just doesn't feel right to me," he said. "It just doesn't add up to me."

Instead, he speculated that visitors might have been fooling around and might have taunted the animal and perhaps even helped it get out by, say, putting a board in the moat.

Ron Magill, a spokesman at the Miami Metro Zoo, said it is unlikely a zoo tiger could make such a leap, even with a running start.

"Captive tigers aren't nearly in the kind of shape that wild tigers have to be in to survive," he said. He said taunting can definitely make an animal more aggressive, but "whether it makes it more likely to get out of an exhibit is purely speculative."

The police chief would not comment on whether the animal was taunted.

The founders of the Performing Animal Welfare Society in Galt expressed sadness after hearing of the attack, but said zoo attacks are not completely unexpected.

PAWS provides permanent shelter for 38 unwanted or confiscated tigers at its sanctuaries in Galt and San Andreas.

"There are dangers inherent in having them in captivity," said Pat Derby. "If you have thousands of people going through all the time, you're compounding the problem."

At the Sacramento Zoo, Nikki Reichel said the Christmas Day attack is a sobering reminder of what is underneath the beautiful face and fur of lions and tigers.

"It's safety, safety, safety," Reichel said. "We instill that in the keepers. When we go out into the exhibits, to clean, we take a visual of the mesh to make sure there are no breaks and that it is safe."

Zoo officials say the tiger that attacked the three young men is the same animal that in December 2006 chewed off part of a zookeeper's arm.

Oversight Organization Offers Reassurance
The Association of Zoos and Aquariums, which gives accreditation to zoos, released a statement Wednesday morning to try to reassure zoo visitors:

"The San Francisco Zoo is a great zoo, it’s an accredited AZA member in good standing, and it has our support during this difficult time.

AZA-accredited zoos are safe. Until this incident, there had not been a visitor fatality resulting from an animal escape at an AZA-accredited zoo."

Ok, so they did have too low a fence after all.

Considering the dead victim was underage, whether or not they taunted the tiger I sense a ton of bricks about to fall on the zoo administration, and possibly other people as well.

has anyone heard any updates? I haven't heard anything these past few days (granted a did not watch much news these past few days)

Here's the latest that I've seen...
The two brothers injured during a tiger attack at the San Francisco Zoo Christmas Day were released from the hospital Saturday afternoon.

Nineteen-year-old Paul Dhaliwal and 23-year-old Kulbir Dhaliwal have been recovering from bite and claw wounds at San Francisco General Hospital. One of the injured brothers was seen getting into a car outside the hospital and leaving under the flashes of media cameras.

Police said 17-year-old Carlos Sousa Jr. was killed by the tiger while he was trying to save Kulbir Dhaliwal. The San Francisco Zoo has been closed since the attack.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the 350-pound Siberian tiger that killed Sousa climbed over a wall that at 12 1/2 feet was about four feet below the recommended minimum for U.S. zoos. Investigators were trying to figure out how the tiger got out of its enclosure.

I don't want to become paranoid by thinking about this, but I've seen zoo enclosures that probably aren't secure enough.  I mean, I'm not an animal expert, but I've seen enclosures that seemed as if the animal might get out if it really really wanted to.  

Regardless of the cause of this tragedy, hopefully zoos will now double-check their enclosures.